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JSB
Post subject: Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AUPosted: June 7th, 2014, 4:55 pm
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I was just very worried by the fact that the OTL RN only did,
Quote:
five of the broad-beamed Leanders were converted to carry Seawolf due to costs (£70 million for each refit)
My plan was that the HMFIT would say no to missiles ( guns are ok for an OPV ) and then the FIN get away with a 30mm goalkeeper ;) to still give limited AA.
Actually with a bit more thought I might go with 2 DARDO in front and back (after all HMFIT they are just Bofors 40 mm guns :twisted: and 2 are lighter than the goalkeeper +30mm).
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(do I need more radar for them ?)

I would be worried you have a lot of kit on your 41 rebuild (both money and weight, they only make sense if they cost LESS than a new ship) and why bother rebuilding the funnels/masts ?
I think you have to sacrifice something, Sea wolf/4.5/Exocet/Big Sonar/flight, I deck don't think you can have it all, what about a fleet of 41/61s with a different mix of weapons some with Big Sonar or TVDS/Exocet other with 4.5/Sea Wolf (all can have a smaller gun (20/30/40mm) and a flight deck)?

JSB


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Oberon_706
Post subject: Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AUPosted: June 8th, 2014, 12:43 am
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JSB, will the bridge crew on your T14 be able to see past the Gun cupola to conn the boat??? looks like it's a bit of an obstruction! I'm not 'gospel'' confident on this but i think you may need a director/illuminator of some description for your 40mm mounts (even if it's just a WM egg on top of the bridge). Also, given the post-Falklands War controversy about the quantity and circumstances of RN ships losses to aircraft and ASMs, I'm not convinced by your abandoning of AA on the T14 - I think it's a very necessary feature - even if it is just limited to Goalkeeper/Phalanx/SeaRAM type systems.

As far as my T41 MkIII is concerned, I'm actually pretty happy with how it ended up - several things to note;

1) The config shown is the culmination of several staged upgradings across it's service life (hence the 'MkIII' designation) and therefore wouldn't have been an all-at-once cost burden).

2) Weight i don't think is an issue (consider layout of Type 21 Frigates and the "Nakhoda Ragam" Corvettes built for the Sultanate of Brunei - similar final configuration, similar hull-to-superstructure ratio and layout, similar weapons/sensor fit), however I'm not sold on the credibility of Exocet on a dinky patrol frigate (that may have to go) and if i changed SeaWolf it would only be the substitution of a lightweight turret over the standard one. May add torpedo launch tubes as well later to level capabilities with the T14 MkIV.

3) I like the bow sonar idea, although I'm slowly warming to your objections, at least in the context of the way I've got it drawn currently. I used the USN Leahy class cruisers sonar as a guide and scaled it down, but i may now try something 'a little more British' as you put it - perhaps using the T21 as a guide.

Don't expect much action from me over the next week or so - I'm heading into exam season at University and need to focus on that - please don't let that stop discussions here though, no doubt I'll still be keeping tabs on things!

Cheers

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Oberon_706
Post subject: Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AUPosted: June 16th, 2014, 1:20 am
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For Perusal and preliminary comment - please note that this is a first draft and much editing will likely yet occur.

Cheers.

The Democratic Commonwealth of the Falkland Islands (DCFI)

The Falkland Islands is an archipelago deep in the South Atlantic Ocean on the Patagonian Shelf, approx. 300 Miles (500Km) east of the South American mainland, at latitude 52oS. The islands cover an area of some 4,700 square miles (12,200Km2), Comprising East and West Falkland and 776 smaller islands and islets. As a former British Overseas Territory & now Independent member of the British Commonwealth of Nations, the Falklands is a prominent and active member of the International Community which, together with its’ constituent territories of South Georgia, The South Sandwich Islands, The South Orkneys’ and Elephant Island, has a combined population of some 11.8 Million citizens and semi-permanent residents. The capital of the Islands is Port Stanley, located on the eastern coast of East Falkland. Other major population centers include Goose Green, San Carlos, Mount Pleasant, Port Coventry (formerly Port Howard) on West Falkland, and Grytviken on South Georgia. The vast body of sub-Antarctic waters encompassed by this widely spread archipelago is known as the Scotia Sea and is considered sovereign territorial waters – territorial claims also extend outward 150 miles from the coastline of the islands, areas enforceable by the combined strength of the Royal Navy’s South Atlantic Patrol and the Falklands Defense Force.

A Short History
Much Controversy exists over the Falklands' discovery and subsequent colonization by Europeans. At various times, the islands have had French, British, Spanish, and Argentine settlements. Britain formally began enforcing its sovereignty over the Islands in 1833, although Argentina persistent claim. In 1982, after the Argentinian Military Junta sent their forces to invade and capture the Islands, the two-month undeclared Falklands War resulted in the surrender of Argentine forces and the return of the islands to British administration, at the cost of some 907 dead and thousands of other casualties on both sides.

The population today consists in the main of native Falkland Islanders and immigrants from other parts of the British Commonwealth. Other ethnicities include French, Australian, Gibraltarian, Israeli and Scandinavian. Immigration from the United Kingdom, Saint Helena, Australia, Israel and Chile (primarily driven by the emerging oil wealth of the islands) has drastically boosted the post-war population of the Islands to approx. 13.8 Million. The predominant (and official) language is English, although the 1 million or so citizens’ with South American heritage maintain a strong use of Spanish as a second language. Under the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983, and the supplementary ‘Sovereignty Clarification Act – Falkland Islands, 1985’, Falkland Islanders hold dual Falklands and British Citizenship. The Islands’ have been a fully independent member of the British Commonwealth of Nations since June 1985.

The Islands lie on the boundary of the subarctic and temperate maritime climate zones, with both major islands having mountain ranges reaching 2,300 feet (700 m). They are home to large bird populations, although many no longer breed on the main islands because of competition from introduced species, as well as the dramatic population increase on the islands since the conclusion of the 1982 war. Major economic activities include fishing, tourism and sheep farming, with an emphasis on high-quality wool exports. Oil & Gas exploration – a major cause for the war and the subsequent boom in the islands prosperity, remains controversial as a result of continuing sovereignty disputes with Argentina, and presents a tempting prize to other nearby nation states. This evergreen security risk has resulted in the Falklands maintaining one of the most capable and hi-tech defense forces per-capita anywhere in the world – its training, weapons systems and force structures being a model for many other armed forces around the western world today.
A More Detailed Social and Military History
The first recorded landing on the Falklands is attributed to English captain John Strong, who discovered the Falkland Sound and "noted the water and game on the islands" on a voyage to Peru's and Chile's littoral regions in 1690.
The Falklands remained uninhabited until the 1764 establishment of Port Louis on East Falkland by French captain Louis Antoine de Bougainville and the 1766 foundation of Port Egmont on Saunders Island by British captain John MacBride. The settlements' mutual awareness is a subject of debate. In 1766 France surrendered its claim on the Falklands to Spain, which renamed the French colony Puerto Soledad the following year. Problems began when Spain discovered Port Egmont; an imminent war, caused by Spain's capture of the port in 1770, was avoided by its restitution to Britain in 1771. Britain evacuated the Falklands in 1774; Spain followed suit in 1811, except for gauchos and fishermen who remained voluntarily.
The archipelago's status was again undisputed until 1820, when Colonel David Jewett (an American privateer working for the United Provinces of the Río de la Plata) informed anchored ships about Buenos Aires' 1816 claim to Spain's territories in the South Atlantic. The islands had no permanent inhabitants until 1826, when German-born merchant Luis Vernet settled at the ruins of Puerto Soledad. Over the next two years Vernet accumulated resources on the islands and, in 1828, felt the venture secure enough to bring settlers and form a permanent colony. Vernet's venture lasted until a dispute over fishing and hunting rights led to a raid by the USS Lexington in 1831, when the ship's commander "declared the island government at an end".
Buenos Aires attempted to reassert its influence over the settlement by forming a garrison, but an 1832 mutiny was followed the next year by the arrival of British forces that reasserted Britain's rule. The Argentine Confederation (headed by Buenos Aires governor Juan Manuel de Rosas) protested Britain's reacquisition of the Falklands, and Argentine governments since then have "continued to regularly register official protests against [Britain]". The British troops departed, leaving the area "a kind of no man's land" and returning several months later to find the port in turmoil. In 1840 the Falklands became a Crown colony, and "a governor and a few Scotsmen arrived to establish a British pastoral settlement". By 1844 nearly everyone had relocated to Port Stanley, considered a better location for the islands' government. Over the next 50 or so years the Islands British population gradually grew until on the cusp of WWI the islands hosted some 150,000 residents, protected by Britain’s vast and powerful Royal Navy.

During the first half of the 20th century, the Falklands played a prominent role during the two world wars as a military base aiding British and allied naval operations in the South Atlantic. Its militarization was heighted in the lead up to and during WWI - the December 1914 Battle of the Falkland Islands resulting in a British victory over the German Cruiser Squadron of Admiral Graf von Spee. Post War, the military presence remained in place, mainly as a hedge against the loss of Valparaiso, Chile as a viable RN Station, the latter being preferred due to its being on the South American mainland, and being that much closer to Britain. During World War II, the 1939 Battle of the River Plate in nearby South American waters resulted in the Royal Navy's defeat of the late Admiral’s von Spee’s namesake pocket Battleship, marking Britain’s’ first victory over the Nazi’s at sea. Also in that war, the threat of Japanese aggression and Nazi U-Boats and Merchant Raiders using the Islands as an anchorage saw the initiation of reinforcement measures under the codename Operation Tabarin, during which some 10,000 Falklands volunteers were trained and equipped for service in the defense of the islands – both on land and at sea. The four ships of the Sturdee Class (subset of the Bathurst class Minesweeper/corvettes of the Royal Navy and Royal Australian Navy), were operated by joint Falklands/British crews in convoy escort and minesweeping duties around the South Atlantic, although all were lost in combat by 1944 and weren’t replaced till late in 1945, the war at sea having essentially been won and lost by this time. At the conclusion of hostilities, the so-called ‘peace dividend’ resulted in the virtual elimination of any native Falkland’s military capacity, and the withdrawal of most of Britain’s’ deployed forces South of Gibraltar; the exception being the replacement ships of 1945 (all castle class corvettes) which were essentially donated by the RN to the Falkland’s Volunteer Naval Reserve as patrol and sea training assets for the Islands – a duty they fulfilled (with Joint crews) until the mid ‘70’s.

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Discovery of Massive Oil and Gas reserves in the seabed surrounding the Falkland’s during the late 1940’s saw a major population boom in the immediate post-war period, the population rising steeply to over 1.5 million by the mid-‘50’s, when Great Britain announced the granting of partial autonomy to the Islands. A local government was established with ministerial representation in London and the population continued to grow, but this was not without opposition.
The Island’s burgeoning mineral resource wealth was one of the main reasons sovereignty of the Falklands again became an important issue during the second half of the century. When Argentine president Juan Perón "asserted Argentine sovereignty" over the archipelago; this increased simmering tensions with Great Britain that have remained to this day. The sovereignty dispute intensified during the ‘50’s and ‘60’s, shortly after the United Nations passed a resolution on decolonization, which Argentina interpreted as favourable to its position. At this point, Britain began a gradual rearming of the islands through the rotational deployment of infantry and the basing of RAF fighters at Port Stanley. Naval activity was also stepped up with a Native ‘Falklands Defense Service’ being introduced to jointly provide a naval deterrence force in the South Atlantic. Two Dido Class Cruisers, each a veteran of combat in WWII, three of the RN’s newer Daring Class Destroyers as well as the existing castle class corvettes (which were comprehensively updated for the role) were dedicated to the new force, and were rotationally deployed south to enforce British sovereignty and to deter Argentinian aggression. However, relations between the United Kingdom and Argentina did not improve over the decades and as Britain’s economic woes of the late ‘70’s and early ‘80’s started to bite, Argentina saw her opportunity.

The gradual post-war dismemberment of the former British Empire, and Britain’s worsening financial situation, saw radical reductions in force imposed on all of the UK’s Armed Services, including its commitment to South Atlantic security. In 1979, the last of the joint Naval force - Major Fleet units, the cruiser HMS Argonaut, returned to Portsmouth to decommission after it’s final South Atlantic Patrol. The same year the Rotational Army and RAF presence was withdrawn as a cost saving measure, and in 1981/82, the Nott review into the size and structure of the UK Military recommended the withdrawal of the South Atlantic patrol ship HMS Endurance, leaving the Falklands perilously under-defended. The only Military presence remaining by the time invasion came was a short company of Royal Marines, plus the three upgraded Castle class corvettes, which at the time was seen by the penny-pinching Thatcher Government as sufficient deterrent to any Argentinian ambitions, a monumentally ill-informed opinion. In April 1982, Argentina’s military Junta launched an all-out invasion of the Falklands and other British territories in the South Atlantic, sinking the two operable corvettes in a short and hugely one-sided naval skirmish, before landing and quickly overwhelming the small royal marine garrison and claiming the Islands as the long sought for “Las Malvinas’. British Prime Minister Margret Thatcher, spurred on by her Military chiefs and the public outcry at home, publically pledged to reclaim the Islands and liberate their populace at any cost, and within three days of the invasion, a Royal Navy/Royal Marine Task force sailed from Portsmouth on the long journey south to War.


The story of the subsequent conflict is a well known one, the only true war of Empire being fought by any nation in the latter portion of the 20th Century; but what is not widely known is the role the Falklanders’ themselves played in their liberation. Many of the Islanders were badly mistreated by their Argentinian occupiers and very quickly a resistance movement formed that, with assistance from Intelligence agents from Britain, conducted a successful guerrilla campaign in the weeks leading up the arrival of the British talk force – sabotaging supply and ammo dumps, setting ambushes for roving patrols and sheltering SAS and Royal Marines covert operators prior to the arrival of the liberation force from Britain. Several Islander fighters were captured and executed by the Argentinians as spies and saboteurs, a gruesome and callous stain on the conflict that has only come to light in recent years.

After the war the United Kingdom expanded its military presence on the islands, building the Mt Pleasant air base and increasing the size of its roulement infantry garrison, thus rectifying the errors made in the previous decade that had set the stage for the invasion. The public backlash, both in Britain and on the Falkland’s was colossal – the loss of life, military hardware and national treasure in the conducting of the liberation campaign being seen as a tragic waste that should never had been necessary. Whilst the Thatcher Government survived, the war saw the end of the then serving Falkland’s government and its representative minister in London, being seen as not having done enough to protest the military withdrawals and negligently ignoring the islands’ perilous defensive situation. Change was indeed in the air.

Fresh elections in late 1982 saw prominent islands businessman and Nazi POW camp survivor Sir Bernard Lawson elected as leader of the new local Government. He quickly sought a vote from the constituency on their views of potential Independence for the Islands, a position sought for by many over the preceding 20 years. The result was overwhelmingly in favor, and thus began a vigorous campaign to establish the Falklands and the other occupied British South Atlantic Territories as an Independent State of the British Commonwealth. This was achieved, finally, in June 1985, when on the third Anniversary of the Argentinian surrender, The Union Jack was struck from outside government house in Stanley and the Democratic Commonwealth of the Falkland Islands (DCFI) officially came into being. With former first Minister Lawson being unanimously elected as the new nations first leader – the title of his post remaining the same as before independence. Port Stanley was retained as the official capital and seat of government, with the parliamentary and legal structure being based on the incumbent Westminster system inherited from Great Britain.

Since Independence the Falklands has thrived, it’s oil and gas wealth holding it in good stead on the international stage. Its population has grown significantly, immigration from all over the globe (but mostly from commonwealth nations) helping to bring the 2014 population to close to 12 Million. The Falklands are well-entrenched players in the global energy and resource market and gained a seat on the OPEC board in 1989 – a stunning achievement for a nation only born four years previously. It has solid trade and defense relationships with many other nations around the world; those of particular note include Great Britain, the USA, Australia, Singapore and Israel (the latter sharing a common national security prerogative that forms a sound foundation for their partnership). These trade relationship have been very fruitful; in recent years the Falkland’s has maintained a GDP of close to 488 Billion Pounds, making it one of the most affluent nations per capita in the western world. This success however has gained it some powerful enemies. Relations with neighboring South American states are far from ideal, most major powers on the continent viewing the Falkland’s with disdain, envy and outright hostility. Its major antagonists include the Argentinians (still belligerently maintaining their claim on the islands and the oil), Chile, Venezuela and Brazil, amongst others and as such there is a constant state of diplomatic and military tension in the region, the source of a constant headache for the Falklands and the international community at large. This prevailing condition has placed national security at the top of any Falkland’s governments priority stack, and has given rise to the modern and capable Falklands Defense Forces – an institution that will be covered in more detail later…

EDIT: Adjustments to image crediting on HMS Allington Castle (22/6/14).

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Last edited by Oberon_706 on June 22nd, 2014, 8:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Oberon_706
Post subject: Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AUPosted: June 16th, 2014, 2:48 am
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Edited a few post in the last little while - particularly those for the Type 14 and Type 41 variants. Also updates to the Air Force composition art.

Cheers

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JSB
Post subject: Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AUPosted: June 16th, 2014, 7:22 am
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Nice 8-) ,

Not sure about a 82 war in this time line my rambling follows,
Quote:
1.5 million by the mid-‘50’s, when Great Britain announced the granting of partial autonomy to the Islands
This is already to big to be invaded and lost, ie GB cant let a colony of 1.5 million fall (to much Votes/money/pride) and the Argentinians will know it (they only attacked in 82 due to thinking that they would get away with it as it was insignificant , 1.5 mill is just to big, it asks questions of will the UK fight to defend Germany etc so it will have to go to war (even to nukes I would think in the end 1.5 is just to big a part of UK pop in 1950 of 50 mill, no government will survive that).

Quote:
At the conclusion of hostilities, the so-called ‘peace dividend’ resulted in the virtual elimination of any native Falkland’s military capacity, and the withdrawal of most of Britain’s’ deployed forces South of the Mediterranean.
The UK based ships (a flotilla of frigates I think) in South Africa for years after WW2 with a bigger FI some will be based at Stanley as well. I cant see Sturdee class not being replaced (I cant see it all being sunk but o well ;) ), at least with a smaller number of free ships (the RN had loads to get rid of at the end of WW2 and would have given them to anybody, especially a (white) UK colony ;) so I think say 2 or 3 hulls (and with oil money they can be easily paid for) I would think Hunt Type III (everybody else used them !).

2014 population to close to 14 Million (very fast from 1.5 in 1950) GDP of close to 488 Billion Pounds (This is the same as Argentina ! in 2013 :o ) = 34,857 £GDP per Cap (ok EU levels/close to UK).

I don't think you have to worry about invasion if you are as rich as Argentina you will win (even without the UK supporting you ;) ) you can buy almost anything with that budget as a lot of it will be oil revenues going strait into the governments hands (so it can have a high defence budget if needed without high unpopular Taxes) trained manpower isn't an issue as you can just pay the UK for troops (and the MOD always has more soldiers than budget throughout the cold war/post cold war).

So to sum up
In this time line you get a big rich colony/part of UK/independent county (not sure that the UK would give up the oil revenue / secure supply if it started in 1950s ?)
- This 'colony' will have its Sovereignty resolved earlier than the OTL FI so will get independence/UN recognition/become part of the UK/NATO earlier (when the UK is still pre suez and to strong for Argentina to do anything about it)

- This will have a huge navy (at least v Argentina including significant RN element's).

- Argentinians will growl but not do anything v this huge thing (that will anyway have defence treaty's with UK/US/Nato/etc its just to good a base /secure oil supply for WW3 !).

- So no war is likely (this gives even more budget for more/better ships ;) ).

Just IMO so keep it up :)
JSB


Last edited by JSB on June 16th, 2014, 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rodondo
Post subject: Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AUPosted: June 16th, 2014, 7:32 am
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Sturdee class built in Australia?

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JSB
Post subject: Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AUPosted: June 16th, 2014, 10:36 am
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A post war hunt III gunboat,
to replace the Sturdee class (hulls given for free at end of the war FI pays to have 3 updated as lightly armed patrol boats).

[ img ]
Not sure what to put as radar fit (I'm sure mine is wrong at the moment :oops: but I just want a cheap 50s set for a gun boat ?).

JSB


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Oberon_706
Post subject: Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AUPosted: June 17th, 2014, 7:23 am
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Thanks for your contributions gents,

Rodondo - don't see why they couldn't have been, most if not all of the Bathurst class were Australian-built, and over twenty served in the Royal Navy/Royal Indian Navy, having been constructed in Australia for British Admiralty orders.

JSB, Love your input as usual sir. I've changes some of the detail in the draft history to respond to your comments (see edited post above) - the main addition has been the replacements for the Sturdee class, i'll let the story tell itself.

Cheers

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JSB
Post subject: Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AUPosted: June 19th, 2014, 4:58 pm
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A few more Qs and comments,

- re the Castle class corvettes, would not a Loch or river be better ? It just the Castles are small, cramped and slow etc (Most of the Castle-class corvettes had been discarded by the end of the 1950s) and the Loch (or a Rivers) are available from reserve and much better ? (In 1948, six vessels, including two of the ex-Royal Canadian Navy trio, were refitted from reserve and transferred to New Zealand.) They have the same crew size (ish) and much faster (Castle class will have problems stopping a fast merchant ship they are that slow !), better ships ? (Or you could use a type 16 or 15 ?).

- I also think that the new ships will be renamed after the lost ones (or crew or towns in the FI ?).

- I think the RN would not walk away from such a FI base/oil supply (they only retreated from Simon's Town due to having to with apartheid.).

- 1982 war, what's the population ? I tried to graph your 3 Population points (1914,1955,2014) and got about 6 mill ?
(Singapore (2013) has a population of 5,399,200 It has an active strength of 71,600 and over 800,000 reservists.)
If Argentina is a threat (and if not they will not be claiming the island in the UN), Then The FI will be able to manage a large defence force.
If the FI has just say 50,000 personnel (no conscription) then the Argentinian invasion will have to be very large ! (can the Argentinians realistically get the ability to land 150,000 troops they may need ? They will also realise that killing 10s of thousands of British is likely to escalate as it will ask very serous questions of the British government (Berlin ! etc).

Keep it up,
JSB


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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AUPosted: June 19th, 2014, 5:57 pm
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could you please spell my username correctly on the castle class, or otherwise replace it with the J.Scholtens I use these days?

also, that main gun looks awfully big for that vessel.

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