Shipbucket

Apologies Ace, I'll correct that and re-upload when i get the chance. Thanks to you and JSB for your thoughts on this - some more alterations and updates are in the wind so look out for those in coming days.

Cheers

_________________
"Come to the Dark Side... We have Cookies!"
____________________________________________


____________________________________________
Current Worklist;

DCFI (Falkland Islands) AU Nation

Ok so i've been musing over this for a short time - still a work in progress - and i want some advice.



The premise is that the Falklands Government funds an upgrade of the Dido class cruisers HMS Sirius and HMS Argonaut in the early '70's, and that they are upgraded to match/improve on the AAW capabilities of the sole type 82 HMS Bristol (entered service in 1973).

I'm committed to doing something along these lines, and at this time period with these two ships in my DCFI AU - I'm just not sure how far to take it and how to massage the specifics to create something credible... Please advise...

Note: if you're going to comment on such things as weapons directors etc, I'm not as knowledgeable as I'd like to be, so please provide visual link's/mark-ups of the drawing as it stands so i understand what you're getting at.

Cheers

_________________
"Come to the Dark Side... We have Cookies!"
____________________________________________


____________________________________________
Current Worklist;

DCFI (Falkland Islands) AU Nation

well, first of all, you are not going to get 2 sea dart launchers aft (look at the belowdeck parts for them to see how much magazine space they require) so I think only one would be fitted.
btw, the dido's were decommissioned in 1966 IIRC, so even if they were in service until later, the refit would be much less extensive as the hull life might not be enough to warrant such an conversion
also, on first glance, this conversion would be about as expensive as building an new type 82 for the same role.

_________________
Drawings are credited with J.Scholtens
I ask of you to prove me wrong. Not say I am wrong, but prove it, because then I will have learned something new.
Shipbucket Wiki admin

What acelanceloet says +


1) Front radar is near useless ?
2) why rear gun directors when you have no rear guns ?
3) why surface torps in 1979 when you could have SSMs ?
4) Is that a quad .5 gun ? (not in 79 and I'm not sure HMS Argonaut ever had them ! Think she got 20mm instead).

Why rebuild them with sea dart ? The cost of a new guided missile ship is made up a lot with its weapons/radars (not sure but I would think 50-70% ? anybody who knows better please say ?). thus the rebuild with the same systems must cost at least 50-70% of the new ship !

A few reasons NOT to use a Dido,
1)The dido's are REALY old and war built (so built fast & bad steel etc.) HMS Argonaut Commissioned: 8 August 1942 (Out of service: 6 July 1946 so really bad heavy use etc.)

2) HMS Argonaut Complement 480, Type 82 Complement 397, Type 42 Complement 253. (manning crisis here we come)

3) The electrics will need a full rebuild to handle the new radars !

4) Old steam only (so cant get away from Nuke strike on port at short warning) probably need rebuilding (to old inefficient standards or totally new £££££).

5) damage control/noise/maintenance standards are very different !

You will have to totally rebuild the ship to get a worth while top end ships (and that will cost as much as a new 82) so you have to go low end (basically guns + bolt on stuff+ helicopter pad, but this may as well be a smaller ship) or don't bother and go for a few type 42s ! (you will probably get at least 3/4 for the cost of 2 Dido's.)

PS - if you go for 42s you can have a 42 v 42 fight !

- add in that by 1979 you can get a scrap Tiger, why would you use a Dido ?
JSB

just do like Norway. 5 frigates, and up to 50-60 Missile and torpedo carrying PT boats. They can deal so much damage in an short time period, that it would be costly to attack.

Well until you have missiles you could rebuild rivers,
A 1950 rebuilt river class (alternative to the castle class, built as a gunboat inspired by type 81)

I'm not sure about what radar/directors I should be using you may have to change them ! (and cut helicopter to save weight)

JSB

Dido class cruisers were considered too small for any modernisation, by the Royal Navy, and so were the first cruisers to be retired post war. The only cruisers to serve post war were the HMS Royalist, which was transfered to New Zealand till 1969 and the former HMS Diadem which was sold to Pakistan.
As for your conversion, I believe the main issues were already mentioned, and the whole drawing looks half heartedly done. Keeping old equipment, like the 4 barreled .5" machine guns (and yes HMS Argonaut was completed with them), or the torpedo tubes and depth charges rack. If you want a fleet for self defence around your islands, go for Heuhen advice: several frigates and a large number of FAC and maybe several small submarines.

_________________
Thank you Kim for the crest

"Never fear to try on something new. Remember that the Titanic was built by professionals, and the Ark by an amateur"

Before you decide what ships maybe set out your budget for each decade ? and population so how much manpower you have (and what percentage is going to your navy).

I agree with the experts the FI doesn't need prestige ships and more smaller ships would be better fighting at close range under air cover). Apart from maybe some imbedded with the RN ? but they would be RN types just paid for by the FI (like HMS Malaya etc).

My problem with any war is that Argentina only really started it due to thinking that,
A) it would be easy i.e. little in the way of defence. (and a week RN with no CVs and focused on USSR)
B) the UK would forget it off as just another small worthless colony lost to independence. (This will not happen with a large white colony/dominion with oil).

If the UK is obviously going to fight hard for the FI then it doesn't matter what forces are actually on the island (assuming the Junta is at least slightly sane ) In a long war v UK the Argentines will lose.

I don't think you really need ships just a 1000 (soon to be) dead "Tommies" to make Argentina think twice. ( this assumes the Junta is at least slightly sane so maybe not )

JSB

Thanks all for your thoughts - I realise that the dido's are old, and the cost realities would most likely not stack up, but to be honest i was just trying to find an excuse to be able to use my favorite RN cruiser design in this AU.
To respond to your concerns Novice, I put a 'work in progress' caveat on the drawing for a reason - not wanting to waste time and effort perfecting something that would get pasted as unrealistic or fanciful. BTW its hard modifying something that's so good to start with - nice work on the original!

To clarify some further points; you all seem to think that Argentina is the same opportunistic, albeit pathetic beast in this AU as in reality, but this isn't the case; and to add to this, the Argies have equally as powerful and covetous neighbors on the South American mainland (Chile, Brazil, Venezuela) who also present a direct and credible threat to an oil-rich but small autonomous colony on the edge of the Antarctic regions whose mother country and greatest ally is over 8,000 sea miles away!!!

As i have implied before, in this AU - i feel justified with cruisers, and anything else I feel will give the falklands a credible deterrent. And whilst I value all your contributions greatly - please don't expect me to take it all on board verbatim. I have certain ideals for this AU that i want to accomplish, and while I'll definitely use your contributions to help rationalize and ground those ideals in something approaching reality - there will be some things that i'm probably just going to let slide - I hope you can all understand this.

In that spirit then; were I to include a Cruiser class in the AU during the late-1950's to late 1970's period, which Ex RN class would you recommend I work with?? (Please don't say the Tigers.... I hate those things...) Crown Colony Class? Minotaur Class? A fictional Class based on something from WWII era like this one;



Thoughts?

_________________
"Come to the Dark Side... We have Cookies!"
____________________________________________


____________________________________________
Current Worklist;

DCFI (Falkland Islands) AU Nation

The problem with big units is that you will have at least 1 going back to the UK for rebuilds (at least early on) so having 4-6 small ships (FF) is better than 1/2 big ones (CAs) unless you need to fight a Argentinean CA (but you should kill that with Airstrikes and maybe SSKs (if you are rich)

Any navy with CAs isn't going to be invaded (easily) by Argentina (even a better more powerful version).
If your a oil rich micro state why not just spend the cash and just pay the RN for protection ? The UK is post 45 always short of cash and would be willing to base heavy units south in return for a subsidy ?.

CA time line that uses Dido's (I would rather go for Air/small ships/RN subsidy/SSKs for defence)
1945/47 1 Dido (or Crown Colony Class? Minotaur Class? bigger allows more modernisation) (unmodernised)+ Rivers
1955 - Dido modernised (small rebuild) with new radars / +3 inch AA gun / helicopter pad ?) + River OPV
1965 - replaced with 3 County class guided missile hybrid cruiser-destroyer (just rate them as CAs). + type 41/61 OPV
1980s - County's big rebuilt (remove Se slug swap for helicopter pad/etc) + type 42s/22/23 + type 14 OPV
2000s - replace County's and type 42/22/23 with type 45s or own design or bought off shelf ? ) + OPV (HMS Clyde like ?)

I like the idea of a Dido but since 5.25 are useless v air post 1950 then you should go for a 6inch + (Crown Colony Class? Minotaur Class? and yes TIGER ) as they will be better v AsufW and have more space to fit new AA weapons.

Why don't you like Tiger ? They are massively more powerful (and the best you can get till AA missiles come along) they are what the 5.25 should have been (they just pay for it in displacement).

JSB